SYDNEY, Australia, Feb. 23 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The following is
a transcript of an interview by Jonathan Karl of ABC News of Vice President
Dick Cheney in Sydney, Australia:
Altitude Restaurant
Sydney, Australia
1:36 P.M. (Local)
Q Mr. Vice President, Iran has again defied the United Nations and has
accelerated their nuclear program. What should be done about this?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, Nick Burns is off to London to meet with his
counterparts to look at the next step in the process, focusing I think on a
prospective further U.N. Security Council resolution. We've seen the
reports from the International Atomic Energy Agency that indicates they are
going forward with their program. That's what they've announced. They've,
in effect, defied the United Nations. And now we'll have to see whether or
not the international community is really serious about insisting on them
giving up their nuclear aspirations.
Q And what are the stakes here? The diplomatic effort has been going on
for a long time and it has not worked. In fact, Iran has gone in the other
direction. So what are the stakes here?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, remember where Iran sits. It's important to
backup I think for a minute and set aside the nuclear question, just look
at what Iran represents in terms of their physical location. They occupy
one whole side of the Persian Gulf, clearly have the capacity to influence
the world's supply of oil, about 20 percent of the daily production comes
out through the Straits of Hormuz. They are the prime sponsor of Hezbollah,
one of the world's worst terrorist organizations. They've been actively
involved through Syria and Hezbollah in trying to topple the government of
Lebanon. They've got a long track record of being a difficult customer. And
they're now governed by Ahmadinejad, who has, in fact, made threats about
Israel, the destruction of Israel and about the United States. And they're
now also pursuing nuclear weapons.
A nuclear-armed Iran is not a very pleasant prospect for anybody to
think about. It clearly could do significant damage. And so I think we need
to continue to do everything we can to make certain they don't achieve that
objective.
Q But Tony Blair recently said that the only sensible solution to this
crisis is diplomacy. Do you agree with that?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We hope that we can solve the problem
diplomatically. The President has indicated he wants to do everything he
can to resolve it diplomatically. That's why we've been working with the EU
and going through the United Nations with sanctions. But the President has
also made it clear that we haven't taken any options off the table.
Q Now, Tony Blair seemed to be suggesting that military action really
isn't an option by saying the only sensible solution here is diplomacy. Is
there realistically a military solution to this?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm not going to go beyond where I am, Jonathan. As
we've said, we're doing everything we can to resolve it diplomatically, but
we haven't taken any options off the table.
Q And that includes, obviously, the military option.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We haven't taken any options off the table.
Q Now, moving to North Korea, you've heard your friend John Bolton has
said that this deal is a huge mistake and rewards bad behavior. Do you
think that John Bolton has a point?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think the decision that we made to try this
approach is the right one. It's different than what happened in '94 in the
sense it's not just a bilateral deal, but rather it involves China, as well
as Japan, South Korea and Russia. China is the main trading partner, if you
will, with North Korea. If you're going to be able to squeeze North Korea
effectively to get them to change policy, China is in the best position to
do it. And China is a part of this agreement. Now, can I guarantee it's
going to work? Of course, not.
But it is an initial first step. The benefits that flow to North Korea
don't flow until they fulfill their obligations and commitments. We think
it's worth a try.
Q But they are going to begin to get some oil assistance before they
dismantle their nuclear weapons, before they give up their nuclear weapons?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: They do. As I recall, it provides for about a
million tons, but they only get 50,000 of that up front.
Q So do you think that Ambassador Bolton is simply off base when he
says that this --
THE VICE PRESIDENT: John's a good friend of mine, and he's entitled to
his opinion. I think that it's worth the effort. The President believes
it's worth the effort, and we've been working to try to get the six-party
talks to produce results, especially working with China, Japan and South
Korea. And we'll see.
Q Do you trust Kim Jong-il to meet an agreement?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Based on his past track record, he's not very good
at keeping his international commitments. But again, we want to try to see
if we can achieve results through diplomatic means. And as the President
said, we think this is worth the effort. It's an initial first step.
Q You've seen some of the commentary in Washington that points to this
deal as a sign that your influence is waning in the administration. What do
you make of that?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't pay any attention to it.
Q Is your influence where it was? You've been portrayed at various
times as being the all-powerful Vice President and now you've been
portrayed as being a Vice President that is somewhat on the outs.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: And probably both of them are inaccurate.
Q Both of them are inaccurate?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, sir.
Q Has there -- people are kind of fascinated to try to understand what
you are all about and what role you really play in this administration.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: My perspective, Jonathan, is that we get these
thumb- suckers, if you will, stories where people speculate who's up, who's
down. It's like covering a horse race or a campaign; it's easy. It doesn't
require much analysis. It doesn't require serious consideration of policy
issues and options. And I think people fall into the trap of focusing on
that and talking about it and reporters writing about it, but it rarely
reflects reality. So I don't worry about those stories.
Q Has your relationship with the President evolved over these six-plus
years that you've been Vice President?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, sure, yes.
Q Can you give me a sense, a hint as in what way?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's a very good relationship. He's been absolutely
true to his word. He said when he persuaded me to take this job that he
wanted me to sign on to be an integral part of his administration, an
important member of the team. And he's kept that word in every respect. We
work closely together. I get to give him my advice, and sometimes he takes
it, sometimes he doesn't. That's always been the deal.
Q You're a student of history. How is history going to look at you?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Oh, I don't have any idea. I don't spend a lot of
time worrying about that. That history will get written after I'm gone from
this job and I can't spend a lot of time worrying about it.
Q If you believe the public opinion polls, you are a deeply divisive
figure, right now not a particularly popular figure in the United States.
What do you make of that?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Jonathan, I'm not running for office. I'm not
worrying about what the folks in Iowa are going to say in the caucuses in
January of next year. I'm there to do a job, and that's to call them as I
seem, to help the President to the best of my ability be the best President
he can to address the issues of the day. We have tough issues. It's a tough
job. And his job is tougher than my job. If you worried about the polls,
you'd be absolutely traumatized and unable to get anything done.
And I also -- we've had a lot of recent evidence of how history regards
a President 30 years after he's left office is a lot different than what it
is on the day he walks out. Harry Truman was I think 23 points in the polls
when he left office. It turns out he was a pretty good President. Same for
Jerry Ford. One of the pleasing aspects of the last few weeks was in the
services for Jerry Ford after he passed away to see the country give him
the recognition that he'd earned and that he was due. They treated him with
much greater respect then than they had when he was in office.
Q So you think this will happen with you and President Bush?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think what we're doing is exactly what needs to
be done for the country. I believe very deeply in what we're doing in the
global war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think history will regard
us as having made good, sound solid decisions. I think we will have
influenced the course of history in significant ways. And so I'm very
comfortable with where we're at, and we'll let the historians argue about
who got it right.
Q Are you worried, though -- you could argue that the Republicans lost
control of Congress because of Iraq. Are you worried that the unpopularity
of this war right now will also cost your party the White House, as well?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm not spending any time. You can't -- I come back
again to the proposition, do we get paid to be popular? Do we get paid to
have a nice standing in the polls? Or do we get paid to do what we think is
right for the country to make those tough calls. And we've done it
consistently. We've made tough decisions and we've done things that we
thought needed to be done. We've succeeded I think in many respects. I
think we've been very successful in Afghanistan and Iraq. I also think
we've been very successful in defending the nation at home. We've gone more
than five years without another 9/11. That's not an accident, but it's
because we've done some very controversial things.
We've aggressively gone after the terrorists overseas -- wherever they
might be. We've put in place the Terrorist Surveillance Program that has
led to a lot of criticism in certain quarters, but it's been vital to
intercepting communications of our enemies. We have had a high value
detainee program that's produced valuable intelligence for the country.
We've set up a financial tracking program that's let us go after terrorist
finances. And we've had to do these things in order to achieve our
objectives and carry out our responsibilities. You can worry about the
polls; I don't have time for them.
Q Well, let me ask you about something you said when we last spoke, you
said that the course that Nancy Pelosi has proposed on Iraq would validate
al Qaeda's strategy. She has come out with a pretty strong response saying
that those remarks were "beneath the dignity of the debate, a disservice to
our men and women in uniform." She's even said that she's going to call the
President to express her disapproval. What's your reaction?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: She did call him. She got Josh Bolten. The
President wasn't in right then. But I'm not sure what part of it is that
Nancy disagreed with. She accused me of questioning her patriotism. I
didn't question her patriotism. I questioned her judgment. If you're going
to advocate a course of action that basically is withdrawal of our forces
from Iraq, then you don't get to just do the fun part of that, that says,
we'll we're going to get out and appeal to your constituents on that basis.
You also have to be accountable for the results. What are the
consequences of that? What happens if we withdraw from Iraq? And the point
I made and I'll make it again is that al Qaeda functions on the basis that
they think they can break our will. That's their fundamental underlying
strategy, that if they can kill enough Americans or cause enough havoc,
create enough chaos in Iraq, then we'll quit and go home. And my statement
was that if we adopt the Pelosi policy, that then we will validate the
strategy of al Qaeda. I said it and I meant it.
Q And you're not backing down?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm not backing down.
Q What do you say to those who look at some of your recent comments on
Iraq of signs of significant progress, and they look and they see the
violence. The last four months have been the deadliest on record for U.S.
troops. Sectarian violence has obviously been rising steadily. People look
at that. They look at your comments, and they say that you're out of touch.
You don't understand how bad it is in Iraq.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I think we have made significant progress in
Iraq. I look at what's happened politically. I look at the size of the
Iraqi forces that we've got trained now. I think the President made a good
decision in terms of surging additional forces into Baghdad. I think the
key to the issue right now is the security situation in Baghdad. I think
the Maliki government is off to a pretty good start. Only time will tell.
I'm fairly optimistic that going forward with this strategy will, in fact,
work.
You don't get to quit just because it's hard. This is important work.
It's very important that we get it right in Iraq.
Q You're fairly optimistic. What do we do if it doesn't work?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, we keep trying until we get it right. I don't
think we can afford to lose in Iraq. Think of what that would mean. Think
about all the people out there in that part of the world from Presidents
like Karzai in Afghanistan and Musharraf in Pakistan, down to the guy who
is toting a rifle in the Afghan Security Forces. They have signed on in
this global conflict against the extremist element of Islam, signed on with
the United States.
Karzai and Musharraf every day they go to work put their lives on the
line. There have been assassination attempts against both of them. Hundreds
of thousands of people have signed to the security forces to fight
alongside Americans. Millions have gone to the polls and voted because they
believe in freedom and democracy and what it offers.
And then the United States suddenly decides, okay, this is too tough.
We're going to go home from Iraq. We're not going to stick it out and get
the job done. What happens to somebody like President Musharraf in
Pakistan? Or to all those people in the streets out there who've been
willing to bet on the United States? We don't get to quit just because it's
tough.
And we learned on 9/11 that we can't retreat behind our oceans, not
worry about what's going on in that part of the globe and be safe and
secure here at home. We lost 3,000 people that morning to 19 guys armed
with airline tickets and box cutters. And the next time we end up with a
group of them in one of our cities, they may have a far deadlier weapon --
a nuclear weapon or a biological agent of some kind. So what goes on in
that part of the globe is absolutely vital for our security. Getting it
right in Iraq is absolutely vital. The best thing we can do in terms of
enhancing our security in the long term and dealing with the problem out
there is to see that the Iraqis succeed in terms of getting a viable,
self-governing democracy that they're equipped and trained with the forces
they need to be able to deal with their own security situation. We don't
want to stay there a day longer than necessary. But we can do it. I think
we have the capacity to do it. I think we've got the right strategy. We've
got a good commander in Dave Petraeus who is in charge now in Iraq. And I
think we need to do whatever it takes to prevail. You don't just get to
quit.
Q Back in 1991, you talked about how military action in Iraq would be
the classic definition of a quagmire. Have you been disturbed to see how
right you were? Or people certainly said that you were exactly on target in
your analysis back in 1991 of what would happen if the U.S. tried to go in
--
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I stand by what I said in '91. But look
what's happened since then -- we had 9/11. We've found ourselves in a
situation where what was going on in that part of the globe and the growth
and development of the extremists, the al Qaeda types that are prepared to
strike the United States demonstrated that we weren't safe and secure
behind our own borders. We weren't in Iraq when we got hit on 9/11. But we
got hit in '93 at the World Trade Center, in '96 at Khobar Towers, or '98
in the East Africa embassy bombings, 2000, the USS Cole. And of course,
finally 9/11 right here at home. They continued to hit us because we didn't
respond effectively, because they believed we were weak. They believed if
they killed enough Americans, they could change our policy because they did
on a number of occasions. That day has passed. That all ended with 9/11.
In Iraq, what we've done now is we've taken down Saddam Hussein. He's
dead. His sons are dead. His government is gone. There's a democratically
elected government in place. We've had three national elections in Iraq
with higher turnout than we have in the United States. They've got a good
constitution. They've got a couple hundred thousand men in arms now,
trained and equipped to fight the good fight. They're now fighting
alongside Americans in Baghdad and elsewhere. There are -- lots of the
country that are in pretty good shape. We've got to get right in Baghdad.
That's the task at hand. I think we can do it.
Q But hasn't our strategy been failing? Isn't that why the President
has had to come out with a new strategy?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: A failed strategy? Let's see, we didn't fail when
we got rid of Saddam. We didn't fail when we held elections. We didn't fail
when we got a constitution written. Those are all success stories.
Q But didn't we fail when 3,000 American soldiers are killed?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You wish there was never a single --
Q When a virtual civil war is --
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You wish there was never a casualty, Jonathan.
Always regret when you have casualties, but we are at war. And we have to
succeed where we've begun this venture. And we can. There's no reason in
the world why the United States of America, along with our allies cannot
get it right in Iraq. I think we will.
Q You seem to be one of the most optimistic people that I have spoken
to about Iraq. Do you not see people who say look at that and you don't see
the downside, you don't see the violence, you don't see the way things are
falling apart?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: If you look at our history -- and crucial moments
in history, whether you look at the Civil War, World War II or other
conflicts we've been engaged in, there were many, many times when we could
have quit, when we could have said, gee, that's just too tough. We're not
going to go there. We're not going to make it.
This is obviously a different kind of conflict, but it requires the
same kind of commitment from the United States, from U.S. leadership, and
unfortunately the same kind of sacrifice on the part of America's armed
forces. We are enormously blessed to have the men and women we have in
uniform willing to go into harm's way on a volunteer basis to do what needs
to be done for the country.
Q Is it getting harder for them, though? You see the latest spate of
helicopter downings, the military says this seems to be a new strategy to
take down helicopters. We've seen the use apparently of chemical bombs now
in the last week in Iraq. Is it getting harder?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's just the terrorists doing what terrorists
always do, adjusting and adapting their strategies. We can do the same
obviously, adjust and adapt. The chemical weapons they're using aren't very
sophisticated at this point. What they've done is apparently put some tanks
with chlorine in them together with conventional explosives, but we have to
adapt and adjust as we go forward. But we can do that.
Q I want to ask you about another issue that's been a subject of
controversy here in Australia, global warming. Did you get a chance to see
Al Gore's movie?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have not seen Al Gore's movie.
Q Doesn't surprise me.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: He didn't invite me to the showing.
Q The premier, huh?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Not that I wanted to go anyway.
Q But what's your sense, where is the science on this? Is global
warming a fact? And is it human activity that is causing global warming?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Those are the two key questions. I think there's an
emerging consensus that we do have global warming. You can look at the data
on that, and I think clearly we're in a period of warming. Where there does
not appear to be a consensus, where it begins to break down, is the extent
to which that's part of a normal cycle versus the extent to which it's
caused by man, greenhouse gases, et cetera.
But I think we're going to see a big debate on it going forward. But
it's not enough just to sort of run out and try to slap together some
policy that's going to "solve" the problem. Kyoto I think was not a good
idea -- not adequate to task. It didn't cover nations like China or India.
It would have done serious damage to our economy. We decided not to go down
that road. The Senate had rejected it overwhelmingly anyway.
But what we're doing with research, we're spending more money on
research than anybody else, probably the rest of the world combined in this
area. We've set targets for ourselves in terms of increasing energy
efficiency, that is reducing the amount of energy per unit of output. And
we're doing better at meeting those targets than I think virtually anybody
who signed up with Kyoto. Most of the folks who signed up with Kyoto aren't
going to meet the targets.
But going forward, if we are going to have a policy, we've got to find
ways to do that, that are not inconsistent with economic growth. You can't
shut down the world economy in the name of trying to eliminate greenhouse
gases. But there are some answers out there -- nuclear power, for example,
is one of them. And getting the United States back into the nuclear power
game I think would be a significant benefit -- both in terms of producing
the energy we need, but at the same time not contributing to greenhouse gas
emissions.
Q So you think the jury is still out about whether or not this warming
we're seeing has been caused by human activity?
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Some of it has, I think. But exactly where you draw
the line? I don't know. I'm not a scientist. I talk with people who
supposedly know something about it. You get conflicting viewpoints. But I
do think it is an important subject, and it will be addressed in the
Congress. I think there will be a big debate on it in the next couple of
years.
Q Now let me ask you about something that I know you don't like to talk
about, but the Scooter Libby trial, the CIA leak trial.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You got to ask. I'm going to give you the same
answer I always give: I'm not going to comment on it.
Q But there was an extraordinary statement that was made by the
prosecutor --
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I'm not going to comment on it, Jonathan.
Q The prosecutor said, "there is a cloud over the Vice President." So
don't comment on the case, but do you think that there is a cloud over --
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Jonathan, the matter is still before the jury. I'm
not going to discuss it.
Q Okay, well, Mr. Vice President, I really appreciate the opportunity to
talk to you.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's good to have you on the trip.
END
1:58 P.M. (Local)
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